About
About Flu Wiki
How To Navigate
New? Start Here!
Search FW Forum
Forum Rules
Simple HTML I
Simple HTML II
Forum Shorthand
Recent Active Diaries
RSS Feed

Search




Advanced Search


Flu Wiki Forum
Welcome to the conversation Forum of Flu Wiki

This is an international website intended to remain accessible to as many people as possible. The opinions expressed here are those of the individual posters who remain solely responsible for the content of their messages.
The use of good judgement during the discussion of controversial issues would be greatly appreciated.

Just what are people's questions, really?

by: lugon

Sun Apr 29, 2007 at 05:49:11 AM EDT


(lugon needs your help, and this could help you - promoted by AnnieB)

A group of about 20 people met in the UK to give their input to officials about pandemic preparedness plans.  There's an on-going discussion here.

Citizens responded to the questions posed by those who convened the meeting.  What if they had been able to ask their own questions?  What would those questions have been?

We can and should find out.  Read on ...

lugon :: Just what are people's questions, really?
I outlined a way to find out here but we can be more ant-like about it, and move forward with this.

This has a lot to do with Crawford Kilian's "60-foot rope hanging from the top of a 100-foot cliff" image.  Folks on the ground may be, horizontally, quite far from the spot where the rope is hanging.  Just where are they?

So, why don't we ask them to ask?

FIRST, we could give people minimal input on:
- what has happened in the past (pandemics are multi-local epidemics all over the world, they have happened without rhythm but on average 3-4 each century, each with their location on the "CAR x CFR" chart, and once they start in one place then the rest of the world can only "mitigate"),
- what is happening at present (H5N1 in many birds and some mammals, with different clades evolving),
- what might happen in the future (a low-medium-high CFR pandemic in a JIT/no-stock world), and
- the tools we have and how useful we think they are (NPI: isolation and quarantine and social distance and covering our mouths with things; Antivirals for some prophylaxis and some treatment; Vaccines which will be late and scarce at least with present technology and this may mean a couple of years at least).

We could use a 30 minute presentation, maybe based on part of this summary if you like.

Then 15 minutes for Q&A just to make sure they understood the presentation (at least intelectually; taking it in emotionally is another matter).  And the slides of the presentation would be left on a lateral wall which we now reveal.

SECOND, we'd ask them to ask 10, 20, 100 questions.  We tell them where the slides are posted on the wall, and we give them 15 minutes, suggesting they do the first 2 minutes individually, and the rest of the time in small groups.  They should write their questions, each on a separate piece of paper, in BIG letters.

THIRD, we offer tea (UK, remember?) and some of us place all the questions on the wall.  We (the big "we", or a subset if we're too many) try and find groups of questions, remove obvious duplicates, try and synthesise a bit without losing meaning, and if some questions are similar we just put them together.  If more questions come up that are felt to be important, we just add them.

FOURTH, we give each person 20 points (red round stickers) and tell them to "spend" their points in the questions they feel most important.  They may give all 20 points to one question or 1 to each or anything in between.

FIFTH, we take one big picture of the wall, and several detailed ones, and produce a listing with scores.

FINALLY, we could place our powerpoint presentation (the "seed" of the conversation), the methodology, number and ages and jobs of people involved, and the results - all of that, in the open somehow.  Preferably on the internet, please.  Maybe here on this thread/diary/conversation?  No need to give too many details of location etc, unless you want to.  But the demographics and the methodology would be nice to see (essential, I'd say).

It's Sunday as I write this.

We could have results of 10 locations by next Sunday.

Anyone wants help with creating the "seed" presentation?  For the UK it would be best to use their assumptions and complement them with comments by world experts on the open-endedness of CFR etc: "this is what UK plans assume, others say we really don't know".

We may be curious: "What will the questions be?"

My guess, but it's just a guess, is there would be "we need to know how bad it will be" questions.  If that's the case, then there's need to address that with "we don't know, history shows this range, experts say they don't know, we're trying to think of it in terms of scenarios".

But that's the reply phase, which you can of course do locally, but by all means get the questions first!  This is a bit like taking a blood sample before giving the antivirals: you want the science and you also want the local effect.  But if you're not ready to deal with replying, by all means collect the questions!

Thanks!

Tags: , (All Tags)
Print Friendly View Send As Email
wikipage started, pictures needed!
http://www.fluwikie....

I'd like the pictures to be as few and as clear as posible.

Just as an example, I think we can place 1918, 1957 and 1968 all in the same CAR*CFR chart, and refer illness and deaths to a population of 1 million people.  Then the speaker just needs to know the local population and multiply or divide as appropriate.  The US is 300 times that, etc.

Other pictures should be in the same line.  As little text as posible, if we can.  We can then have "speaker's notes" on the wikipage.

Let's keep in mind this approach is "give a little, take a little" in the sense that we don't want to dump all everything we (think we) know into people's brains, at least not all at once.

Here we "give" (share this presentation) what we know to the extent that we know it, and then "take" (ask for their questions and priorities).

We collect their questions and bring them here, which has value for the world.

Then we go on talking, locally, about what we'll be doing here.  Which has local value.  (And we can share that too.)

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


Often first question is What do we need to do
to get our family through an influenza pandemic?

If the govt can't help everyone at once, just impossible for scope and time -public can see that- then what can we do do increase our family's chance at survival?

(Can't have common good nor govt if individuals and families don't know and aren't try to survive; also can't have functioning organizations and agencies and business "functioning as normally as possible" if households weren't prepared.)

Can we not leave the 1889 pandemic out? I think it has hindered thinking to not see infor from 1889 in timelines/charts.


[ Parent ]
Questions will depend on location and knowledge of audenance:
The questions will depend on the priorities that each individual wants addressed>

these may include these general areas: 

1)  Personal health: self, family, friends, and community.

1a) Children's health:  married with children

2)  Security: self, family, job, friends, and community.

3)  Critical services: i.e. power, water, sewer, etc.

4)  Travel: job and personal reasons

5)  What happens after its over?

RICH 
 

  No warning - no way to fight - no way to win!  
We need help in our local communities to survive. Remember that quote:    "...No man is an island..."


During World War II there was rationing because supplies were short.
Raw materials weren't available for consumer goods, and many workers in factories and shops were sent to the front.  What effects would a pandemic have on daily life?  Should we prepare for shortages of food, fuel, medicines, and clothing? 

OR

I'm healthy, so if I don't get sick, everything will be fine, won't it?  Just life as usual, la, de, da.  ;-)

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor


Jane, I agree - from the idividual flows all else
Jane,

  I have to agree with you

  Lugon has a good idea wiht "FOURTH, we give each person 20 points (red round stickers) and tell them to "spend" their points in the questions they feel most important.  They may give all 20 points to one question or 1 to each or anything in between."

  But people will spend their credits differntly depending on how threatened they feel.

  Like you said "I'm Healthy so I do not get sick and life will be fine. la de da..." These people would put an emphasis on helping others.

  If the people feel as safe as they can, they can function as normaly as they can.

  If they are safe then they will not call for help to an over streesed system.

  I feel fear is a better motivator than reason or facts.

  I am not sure rationing will work as production and  supply lines could be cut. Also, as supplies dwindle prices will rise. If things where all in one country then the Government could put a cap on that. Since we trade so much I am not sure that would work. China, UK, Germany, Italy Brazile, US, Russia, etc could all triple their prices and the other countries can not make them lower them - except by not buying them.

Kobie


[ Parent ]
i still need pictures for the presentation - which are your best ones?
I don't mean Kobie's particularly ;-)

I mean I'm working on http://www.fluwikie.... and I'd like some pictures for each line.

The aim is still to have this 30-minutes presentation.

Then we need the red sticky circles, and the courage to convene a meeting, first talk a bit, then listen a lot, then report back here.

I could do with some help to get some pictures.

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


[ Parent ]
Do you want graphs like the ones in this PDF file?
http://www3.niaid.ni...

I'm sure I could make graphs that look like these but I'd have to know what to do with them afterwards.

It might be easier if you list the pages you want here (newfluwiki2) and ask people to pick them off one by one. If we don't state an intention to complete a task we could end up duplicating pages and missing others.

You've got to remeber that some of us (and by that I mean me :-) are a bit thick.


[ Parent ]
hmm - just what do i mean? :-)
I think the text is pretty straight-forward as it is.  Each sentence can be expanded as a paragraph, but those are the ideas.  Now, maybe each sentence could have a chart or a picture - or maybe just nothing but the text.

What I am aiming at is a short presentation, one that can be "delivered" by "one of us here" to say 20 people of "those outside here".  That would be the "say" part, and then we would enter the "listen" part, which starts when we say "what are your questions?".

The "say" part should be short but we should also convey the essentials.  The focus here is not to convince or anything.  It is just a "listening exercise".  I would like to know what "newcomers" come up with as "important questions".

I feel we could help a number of others to come on board.  Maybe.

So, being practical and replying to UK-Bird´s question: I´d rather find, or make and upload, charts and pictures and diagrams that help convey the ideas already in the text of the presentation.

I already fused the 4 diagrams with "CFR*CAR=cat1, cat3, cat5"  Like this http://newfluwiki2.c... but with 1957, 1968 and 1918 in the same graph.  The concept would be "not all pandemics are created equal" and also "pandemics happen".

Hey, we could do it on an even wider scale if we presented the thing on TV and then ask for questions etc.  The first 100 questions get a pack of N95s ;-)

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


[ Parent ]
Utility pictures
Lugon,

  You are right - we need everyones pictures.

  I was thinking of power plant with people walking towards it connected to transmission towers with a broken line leading down to a sub station with workers then feeding out to a large building with Red Cross - hospital, water treatment plant, homes, school and movie theater.

  Why movie theater? To see how people vote and so people have something not to vote for. Human engineering concept.

  I would also have a blu line running from water treatment plant to the hospital with a break in the line and workers standing around.

  That is about as far as i would go. The fact that many of these things need fuel (power plant, hospital for heating and boilers, ambulance, workers for repair machinery)  is too over whelming for an intro picture.

  I guess another page would have wharehouse of food, trucks then a grocery store and finaly a full closet of food in a home.

  Hope this helps.

Kobie


[ Parent ]
But their safety is an illusion. Not la-di-da, more DA, da, da, da, DA, da, da, da (Jaws)
Life would NOT go on as usual because we flubies know that the healthy can be slammed by a pandemic virus, and supply chains are fragile, and inventories will be exhausted in a day or two. 

The audience will have different questions after they have learned about ER closures/diversions, JIT inventories, lack of PPE for HCWs, the CFR for 20-40yr-old people, intensity of staffing needed for high-tech vents in ICUs (ie, how it won't work in a high school gym), etc.

The trick is to help our audience make the connections (over the course of an evening or an hour) that help them understand that the virus is only the beginning, and what each family does ahead of time can help keep them safe and fed.  Is it too simple to use the ant and the grasshopper story outline, with human families instead?  There was an old news story about preppers with a photo of one family's very full pantry.  That family versus Old Mother Hubbard, whose cupboard was bare.

How many issues to bring up at once?  Briefly hitting most of them could either make people go into denial or wake them to the awful possibilities: mortuaries overloaded, hospitals filled and closed, medicines used up and not resupplied,  electrical grid crashed,......  If you knew the audience would return for Part 2, it would be easier to fit everything in, including a lesson on virus, reassortment, etc.  to convince people that it's a real possibility/probability, but it might be better to just review 1918, including how our lives are different from people who lived then-home gardens, canning, living without refrigeration, more of our population living in rural areas, and more people with wells.

"The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it."  Flannery O'Connor


[ Parent ]
no denial or shock - they must write some questions - something to do :-)
and of course they can write their own questions for 1-2 minutes and then work in groups: someone will say "what i don't know is ...", and others will fill it in "... keep our children safe", "... pay the rent", etc.  Those are the things that matter to people!  People then vote for the whole lot of questions (my questions and everybody else's) and we get a red-circled picture of what people's concerns are.

We now have a way into their minds!  };->

Nah, seriously: we can now compare our concerns with their concerns, and build from there.  O:-)

The game is called conversation.  We, as concerned citizens, can (and should, in my opinion) learn to do it in steps.  That's why we need to keep the initial presentation simple so that they may ask while we listen attentively (and not just thinking of the next thing we're gonna say because we know so much)!.

No?

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


[ Parent ]
Getting uninvolved people involved.
Lugon,

  Ahh those first steps. Here I fall short as its been so long since I have *not* had flash light, knife, rope and first aide kit. Even as a kid it was easy to maki a flash light from a bulb, paper clip, tape and battery.

  Its hard for some to understand why prepping is good. Its just as hard for me to understand why not. That defines the gulf between the two groups.

  Hence the pictures may be a good start. Some might have to figure out what they value as they have never asked themselvs that before.

Kobie


[ Parent ]
Jane-DA, da, da, da, DA, da, da, da (Jaws) - Ohhh so tempted to use that at a presentaiong. Very Good! n/t


[ Parent ]
i really want people's questions
I appreciate our guesses at what their questions would be.

In fact, our questions do come from the public because we're part of the public.  (It's not like those paid interviewers who fake questions instead of knocking on many doors each day, if you know what I mean.)

But I'd rather see us getting questions from less informed folks.  We're probably biased or at least we have "second order" questions.

Let's ask other members of the public and do some nice little activism, can we?  O:-)

I've added a graph to the wikipage.  I'll try and add more next week.

You arm yourself to the teeth just in case.  You don't leave the gun near the baby's hand.


Excellent Idea
If you spend more than 15 minutes per day thinking, writing, reading or talking about a potential influenza pandemic you are incapable of knowing what the general public knows, feels, wonders about this topic.  (Generally this works for politics and I am pretty confident it works here too.)

That does not mean we would not be able to guess quite a bit of what the general public would come up with, but the gap is too large for us to rely on our own perceptions. 

Gathering these questions would plumb the depths of their understanding and their feelings on this issue (both of which are invaluable in trying to communicate effectively with them on this issue) but as importantly it begins the discussion in a way that includes them as active, effective participants. 

It also serves as the 'pilot' for this new show.  If you can set up regularly scheduled meetings (monthly?) attendance might grow as word of mouth generated interest. Knowing you will have a 'next meeting' gives you permission to give them less that the whole text book in one class.

Not sure what you are looking at for a timeline, but it would take a minimum of a couple of weeks to prepare and publicize.

ITW(Joel J)
Courage is resistance to fear, mastery of fear - not absence of fear.
- Mark Twain
 


Lugon, excellent approach
I have seen a similar methodology used, and it was very effective.

When suggesting to people that they get medications
in advance to see them through a pandemic event, their first question is:

"Does my Doctor know what I am talking about or will he/she think I am crazy for asking?"

As a suggested solution, where people are hesitant to ask outright for extra prescriptions, I recommend they start moving/sliding their regular appointments by about 7-10 days and thus, slowly accumulate their own "excess" to see them through.


Eat pudding first - who know's what might happen next! - Anon


Menu

Make a New Account

Username:

Password:



Forget your username or password?



Active Users
Currently 3 user(s) logged on.

Contact
  DemFromCT
  pogge
  Bronco Bill
  SusanC (emeritus)
  Melanie (In Memoriam)

  Flu Wiki (active wiki resource)
  How To Add To Flu Wiki
  Get Pandemic Ready (How To Start Prepping)
  Citizen's Guide v 2.0
  Effect Measure
  Dude's FTP

Home
Powered by: SoapBlox